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Talk:USS Galen (NX-86350)
I'm not sure that adding speculation the the ship's class is entirely called for considering that there was such a vague explanation given. For the record, the theory presented in the reverted edit actually contradicted the vague description present in the source material. -- Captain MKB 15:22, March 13, 2011 (UTC) :I appreciate the point, Mike. But this isn't without precedent. See the same sort of conjecture on Chesapeake class which suggests that the ship might have originally been based on the Decatur class. No more evidence given than I supplied here, because none is available, but I found the link on that article helpful, so I supplied a similar one here. I'm not sure why you think there's a conflict in the source material, as the Novel describes a ship which is a "cross between a Nova and Miranda," and which seems to have been constructed as an advanced technology demonstrator. While I don't maintain that there's any evidence that conclusively proves that it's the Spirit, I didn't say that. I simply offered that the Spirit fits that description. While I concede that this isn't ordinarily done for a ship with an unstated class, generally in those cases there isn't enough information to make a possible identification. In any case, I found the information on the Chesapeake article useful (so I hope you'll leave it in there). Is there a better way of phrasing this information that might better address your concerns? SwordandScales 20:28, March 13, 2011 (UTC) ::Thanks for the appreciation and discussion - it's nice to see a new user willing to open up to a rational point. ::As to the Chesapeake/Decatur -- i also think that passage bears removal -- good catch on that. It is in violation of this same policy of not presenting unwarranted speculation without being borne out by actual source material. This policy is also why this isn't ordinarily done. ::As to attempting to infer the ships class where no description exists, I don't think there's any way to introduce such a passage into the article based on the limited information from the sources. I'd prefer to leave that blank as my personal preference. ::I also don't think the Spirit looks anything like a Nova/Miranda hybrid, leading me to think this particular speculation is probably mistaken. -- Captain MKB 21:28, March 13, 2011 (UTC) :::I suppose this is a pretty good example of how two Star Trek fans reading the same description come up with totally different ships. ;) When I read "Nova/Miranda hybrid," I took that to mean Nova class parts in a Miranda arrangement. To wit, we see this sort of thing a lot in Trek: Constitution is to Miranda as Galaxy is to Nebula as Ambassador is to (semi-cannon conjectural) Apollo. Ergo, in my mind's eye, I deleted the Nova's secondary hull, flipped the nacelle axis "upside down" and plugged it into the aft end of the saucer. Lo and behold, what I imagined was pretty much exactly what I found on the USS Spirit page. When I saw that the designer for that ship also designed one of the other major ship classes in the same novel, I thought that was probably a little too convenient to be a coincidence, but I admit it's certainly possible. In any case, I openly admit, it's pure speculation. But it's the sort of speculation I think is occasionally (read: quite rarely) useful in the Memory-Beta forum. Reason being, the ships are characters in the story, very much like the main crew (for an interesting discussion on this, see Ira S. Behr and Rick Berman discussing the destruction of DS9's USS Defiant as "killing off a major character" on Memory-Alpha). :::Memory Alpha articles have the advantage of discussing ships that appear on screen, and where they *don't* appear on screen, they're not major characters. Memory Beta articles discuss major ship-characters that never get seen, and I'm sure as a Trek-reader, you've had moments yourself of "Wow. I'd sure like to know what the heck that looks like!" One of the reasons why I was so glad to see that original insert in the Chesapeake class article was because I had just such a moment when I read the Terra Nova series description of the Peleliu. ;) Memory Beta policy as-is seems to discourage such a reference, but as a long-time MB reader (if not long-time contributor) I was certainly glad it was there. I suppose the danger in including such a thing is that one of the advantages of a book is that you can imagine the ship to look however you like, and if someone suggests an arrangement that's different than what you imagined, you can end up with a situation like we've got here. "You think *that* looks like a Nova/Miranda?? I don't see it." But we're not suggesting that it *is* the canon-appearance. Just one possibility. I certainly see why we have to discourage speculative statements in a Wiki forum: if we don't, all of our articles would rapidly become useless (see: Star Trek Expanded Universe Wiki ::ducks::). But might there be a place for this sort of information *somewhere* in the article? SwordandScales 21:53, March 13, 2011 (UTC) :You seem to have a lot invested in putting this here, but I have to ask why for a few reasons. :First off, the "Nova" is a shorter vessel, as was the "Miranda" before it. By "short", I mean that the saucer is almost as wide as it is long. This is in opposition to newer vessel types like the "Sovereign", "Aventine" and yes, the "Spirit". In fact, the Spirit is the most elongated Starfleet primary hull I've ever seen. So in this, I have to say the Spirit is the most unlike the Nova and Miranda as any ship I've ever seen. The only quality of the Nova I can see here is the warp nacelle. This is why we avoid such subjective speculation -- you've taken this to a level that another person can't even understand, in your desire to associate these classes with each other, based on your own imagination. :As an aside, there's a similar problem with associating the Chesapeake and Decatur, since the Challenger has a complete belowdecks structure completely unlike the Decatur -- complete with a round deflector and observation windows (where the Decatur has an abbreviated underside with a ovular deflector and no observation decks, as that's where the nacelles attach. It's a cute theory, but not borne out by the sources. :Secondly, why do you think the wiki is a place for this? We have a specific policy that says "don't add speculation". We try and clip it down whenever we see it added. But if something makes sense, we'll sometimes present it as a possible explanation, but even that teeters on the edge of the policy. What gain are you really proposing here? When we stay as true as possible to the source material, we run the highest probability of keeping everything here "correct". When we start to vary from that, discussions like this happen where one user thinks the addition just isn't so, and another argues strenuously for it. What's gained. Interestingly, you call this a forum, rather than a wiki, indicating that you might not recognize the difference. -- Captain MKB 23:06, March 13, 2011 (UTC) ::Not to worry, Mike. I understand the difference just fine. The number of article contributions I've made thusfar isn't directly proportional to the number of candles on my birthday cake. In this context, I simply meant "forum" as "a medium for collaborative discussion." Nothing more. ::And nope, I don't really have a lot invested, beyond a desire as strong as yours to make MB as useful to its readers as it can be. I thought the information was useful, and was pleased to see it, so I thought I'd discuss it with a veteran user to see if there was an acceptable way to include it in the article. That's all. As for what's gained, I can't really offer much more than saying that it creates a more useful and complete cross-index between existing articles (If you consider a possible relation between them "more useful and complete."). To my knowledge, that's something any encyclopedic index would hope to do. SwordandScales 23:18, March 13, 2011 (UTC) :::Well to the end of enhancing links, which is beneficial to the wiki, starships of unknown class might have linkages, in out-of-POV 'background' sections -- but even those would have to be based on a possibility derived from a licensed source - for example, if a ship is described as a type of freighter, a list of contemporary freighter classes might be listed as possibilities. I think the link in a bit tenuous in this particular case (since Spirit was never really equated with emergency medical applications in the source information describing it), but I can see your desire to interlink things is an honest one and I'd support such links in other cases where stronger connections exist. -- Captain MKB 00:48, March 14, 2011 (UTC) ::::Thanks, Mike. The time and discussion is, as always, appreciated. :) SwordandScales 02:51, March 14, 2011 (UTC)